Warning! If u beleive that every word of the bible is unquivocally true than DO NOT READ THIS POST becuase u obviously havent advanced ur thought enough to have a INTELLIGENT conversation about religion
After sayin that i will also say that please dont leave any angry mean posts that are not contructive in any way because u do not believe or agree with what i am saying
I want somebody to give me a reason for why i should beleive in God u see i am an aitheist that grew up in a conservitive christian enviorment and decided that god doesnt exist and ive been unable to meet anybody that can argue a good case for god that i cannot rebbuttle or disprove.
I want somebody to defend his/her faith
Hotep,
Mr. David, one of my mentor is a Zen Buddhist and the other is a Muslim. Now, both of them were former Christan and they felt as if God rather the Church let them down, therefore they left the Faith. I hope that not what happen to you. Holla at your Boi- I 'm prayin For Ya.
Prince
Ever since everyone can remember people have wondered one thing: "Where did the world come from ?" Genesis tells us God created it. But that answer just opens up a bigger question : Where did God come from?
And that question can't be answered. Because God didn't come from anywhere. He has no parents, no hometown, no birth certificate. The Bible explains it this way "Before the mountians were born, or you brought forth the world, from everlasting to eveerlasting you are GOD!" - Psalm 90:2
God is everlasting- infinite, with no begining and no end.We as human raise the question "Everything must have a begining and a end" We celebrate this fact through :
-Birthdays
-Weddings
-New years day
-Funerals
-Graduations
With all this attention to beginings and ends its hard to even contemplate that something or someone that has niether. We're only farmiliar with what is finate-infinity makes no sense at all.
Some people refuse to belive the Bible's story of creation at all. They claim that their start from the "Big ****". But that still does not solve the mystery: No matter who or what sits at the top of your "family tree" Adam and Eve,Atom &Amoeba, or Crash and ****- Someone started it all.
Someone named God. And at that very moment he created something else: Beginings. So from that moment on everthing in the world would have one. Even this world has an end! Yes, Jesus is coming back for us ! One day you and I will meet the Lord face to face. Is he going to say "Well done my good and faithful servant" ? If your not sure where you are going after you die, maybe it's time to get right with God.
If this doesn't make much sense to you, don't worry about it. I hope you can ask God face to face one day.
hey you didn't answer my question . but fa real. you have said all this about what can be proven and what can not, but you never really said what you believed. But the bible is a history book and just like we are taught history in school it is studied so that we do not make the same mistakes. just like our history books, the bible is completely factual. and if you wanna say that we all interpret the bible differently, and that's why it's not true; that's completely false. in our history book when the story has a moral, and you have to answer those chapter questions called critical thinking, I'm sure your answer was different from billy bob and betty ****'s; that did not mean that the history book was wrong it just meant that you learned a little something different that billy bob or betty ****. And i think it was 313 girl who said something about how evolution is not accurate, or something like that; that's correct. Evolution has NEVER proven. all scientist know that. and the big **** theory is the bigest crap in the book of evolution. it defies science. but HOLLER...back homie
I have to interject on the completely factual part... a lot of the bible, in particurally the new testament was written by the apostles who have very differing stories on matters such as the birth of jesus, how judas died, etc.
Acts says that Judas' insides burst and his guts spilled out. (Acts 1:18)
In Matthew, Judas hangs himself. (Matthew 27:5)
Paul says Jesus appeared to the 12 after his ressurection, Judas was one of the 12 so says Mark 14:12
Also, if you hold to some historical evidence, alot of what they say in the bible would largely be impossible. Such as Judas being paid with 30 silver pieces. In the time in which Jesus lived, they used minted coins which also meant that the coins would not have been wighted out as written. Or Jesus being hung between two robbers. Only insurrectionists and rebellious slaves were crucified.
The father of Joseph was disputed... som say it was Jacob, some say Heli...
Jesus' last words... I could go on and on...
Alot of the bible was doctored to fit the needs/opinions of its writers. Just keep that in mind when you say the bible is completely factual :wink:
quick reply to kikibrown
First of the bible is not completely factual it says that the earth was created in seven days and that human being were created from the dust after all the animals were created
But their is extremely large amount of data from hundreds of different scientific sources that gives evidence to the "theory" of evolution and that human beings evolved like all other animals and plants and all other life upon earth did
Obviously u did not read the articles that i linked too or maybe u didnt understand them. before u say evolution has no scientific evidence behind it please actually read something written by "actual" scientist not something that was just said by your pastor or your friends
Of what i beleive i believe that the universe we know of started in the big **** and then stars and star systems began to coallense because of gravity and then after that planets and then on a certain planet called planet earth their were just the right ingredients for the start of life then this life contiually evolved for about 3 billion years and now it is what u see today
U also said that history books have a moral but unfortuantly if it is a history book it is supposed to be unbiased and nonjudgemental and therefor cannot give u a moral for stories so i would please like a copy of the history books u are reading so that i can report them to the school board for their inaccuracies
hey homie, thank you for replying to me, but let me reply back. Your right I didn't go to the links, i was being lazy...but the what I said about evolution is correct. sure most of evolution can be scientifically possible, but unfortuanatly it hasn't been proven, and i didn't hear that from my pastor or a friend, it was from a master of biology, who was working on their PHD (my old teacher who actually believed in evolution). And the big **** theory is impossible. it goes against the law of physics: Construction can not form from destruction. And that basically what the big **** theory is, it is the world being form by an "****". The **** occurs, then the matter somehow forms into what we know as our universe today. now, scientifically is impossible. HOLLER...at ya girl. oh yeah and about the history books...they are made by humans, what human do you know that has an unbiased opinion, when you meet one, you should introduce me. although it is history it is told differently by different people, and that's just how life is.
also would quickly like to say that u said that "Evolution has NEVER proven. all scientist know that. and the big **** theory is the bigest crap in the book of evolution." but the big **** theory is sepreate from evolution. evolutions is the process in which LIFE ON EARTH became the way it is today while the big **** is a seperate theory that descibes the begginings of the universe about 12 billion years before life began on earth. Evolution deals only with life while big **** is about the beggings of the universe two seperate things
So u comments only show the grave misunderstanding that u have about science and that u need to read up on these princples before you critizice them.
Also please give me one REAL scientist that says that he "knows" that evolution has never been proven
"grave misunderstanding". wow! don't make it seem like I am not on the same level as you. you asked a question and I answered what I know. like i said, my teacher was a scientist and she taugtht that the big **** theory was evolution. Evolution is defined as change over a period of time and if you want to get technical, that's what the big **** is. The world before what we know now, under went "a ****" and over time, what we know was formed. HOLLER...
hey you didn't answer my question . but fa real. you have said all this about what can be proven and what can not, but you never really said what you believed. But the bible is a history book and just like we are taught history in school it is studied so that we do not make the same mistakes. just like our history books, the bible is completely factual. and if you wanna say that we all interpret the bible differently, and that's why it's not true; that's completely false. in our history book when the story has a moral, and you have to answer those chapter questions called critical thinking, I'm sure your answer was different from billy bob and betty ****'s; that did not mean that the history book was wrong it just meant that you learned a little something different that billy bob or betty ****. And i think it was 313 girl who said something about how evolution is not accurate, or something like that; that's correct. Evolution has NEVER proven. all scientist know that. and the big **** theory is the bigest crap in the book of evolution. it defies science. but HOLLER...back homie
I have to interject on the completely factual part... a lot of the bible, in particurally the new testament was written by the apostles who have very differing stories on matters such as the birth of jesus, how judas died, etc.
Acts says that Judas' insides burst and his guts spilled out. (Acts 1:18)
In Matthew, Judas hangs himself. (Matthew 27:5)
Paul says Jesus appeared to the 12 after his ressurection, Judas was one of the 12 so says Mark 14:12
Also, if you hold to some historical evidence, alot of what they say in the bible would largely be impossible. Such as Judas being paid with 30 silver pieces. In the time in which Jesus lived, they used minted coins which also meant that the coins would not have been wighted out as written. Or Jesus being hung between two robbers. Only insurrectionists and rebellious slaves were crucified.
The father of Joseph was disputed... som say it was Jacob, some say Heli...
Jesus' last words... I could go on and on...
Alot of the bible was doctored to fit the needs/opinions of its writers. Just keep that in mind when you say the bible is completely factual :wink:
hey, well the bible say that judas hung himself, and from this his insides burst and his guts spilt out. it depends on the version. the bible written in hebrew is completely factual, it was we they were translated in to english, and there was no direct translation so yes things had to be said differently, but it doesn't mean the story changed. and the thing about judas and crucified robbers, I don't have an explination on the robbers and what normally happened, but the death of Jesus is recorded in not only the bible, but it is recorded in the jewish history, and they were robbers. And his father was Joseph, deasendant of King David, just as it had been prophecied. that's on record too. And lastly about the twelve being there after his ressurection, I remember it reading the DISCIPLE were present and that was the twelve remaining. but I'ma get the correct verse later. HOLLER....
I have to interject on the completely factual part... a lot of the bible, in particurally the new testament was written by the apostles who have very differing stories on matters such as the birth of jesus, how judas died, etc.
Acts says that Judas' insides burst and his guts spilled out. (Acts 1:1
In Matthew, Judas hangs himself. (Matthew 27:5)
Paul says Jesus appeared to the 12 after his ressurection, Judas was one of the 12 so says Mark 14:12
Also, if you hold to some historical evidence, alot of what they say in the bible would largely be impossible. Such as Judas being paid with 30 silver pieces. In the time in which Jesus lived, they used minted coins which also meant that the coins would not have been wighted out as written. Or Jesus being hung between two robbers. Only insurrectionists and rebellious slaves were crucified.
The father of Joseph was disputed... som say it was Jacob, some say Heli...
Jesus' last words... I could go on and on...
Alot of the bible was doctored to fit the needs/opinions of its writers. Just keep that in mind when you say the bible is completely factual
MAT 27:5-8 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the price of blood." And they consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
First of all, notice that the text does not say that Judas died as a result of hanging. All it says is that he "went and hanged himself." Luke however, in Acts, tells us that "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out." This is a pretty clear indication (along with the other details given in Acts - Peter's speech, the need to pick a new apostle, etc.) that at least after Judas' fall, he was ****. So the whole concept that Matthew and Luke both recount Judas' death is highly probable, but not clear cut. Therefore, if I were to take a radical exegetical approach here, I could invalidate your alleged contradiction that there are two different accounts of how Judas died. Notice verse 5..."Then he...went and hanged himself." Matthew does not say Judas died, does it? Should we assume he died as a result of the hanging? What does Acts say? ACT 1:18 "Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out." ACT 1:20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.' Here we may have a graphic explanation of Judas' death. Of course, maybe someone can find some medical source somewhere that discusses the possibility of one having their entrails gush out after being burst open in the middle, and still survive. So, my line of reasoning to dispel the contradiction myth the "two" accounts of Judas' death is this...Matthew doesn't necessarily explain how Judas died; he does say Judas "hanged himself", but he didn't specifically say Judas died in the hanging incident. However, Acts seems to show us his graphic demise. Therefore, there is no contradiction between Matthew and Acts regarding Judas' `death'. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another. In fact, when you put both stories together you find what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his **** spilled out.
On his way falling down it is possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging and hit some rocks, thereby bursting open, but we don't know if Judas actually fell on rocks because the bible left that part out, but we can use our common sense.
Therefore, the new testament is a collection of books that tell of an account of Jesus's life from his birth to his death. Each book is written by a different apostle, a different individual at that so each story is going to be told differently. They're all telling the same story but in a different way. One apostle leaves out certain details, another decides to give these details. Since this story is told from different perspectives one book may leave out certain information that another book did not. However, when you put the stories together they all fit into one truth. Look at it as a puzzle. We all have a piece to the puzzle. My piece is different than yours but when we put them together they make one picture.
As for your 2nd point:
Quote:
The father of Joseph was disputed...some say it was Jacob, some say Heli
This is a very common complaint that Atheist(not saying you are) seem to have:
Who is Joseph's father? In Matthew 1:16 we read, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." However, Luke 3:23 records, "...Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli..." Have we caught the inspired writers in a point of contradiction?
Now the careful Bible student is likely to conclude that Matthew and Luke present two different genealogies: genealogy of Joseph and the geanology of Mary. Following through the genealogies, one will notice that there are some names which are common to both, but also, an great number of differences. Matthew begins at the patriarch Abraham, and works his way to Jesus the Christ. Luke begins at Jesus, and works his way back to Adam. There are two genealogies, with two distinct purposes. Matthew, it appears reveals the genealogy of Joseph, and Luke, presents the genealogy of Mary.
Matthew, penning his gospel with the Jews in mind, sets out to establish Jesus' qualifications to be the Messiah through Joseph's genealogy. Thus, beginning with Abraham, he maps the Lord's genealogy through David, and the kings which followed. He presents Jesus royal lineage (through the males) through "...Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..."
Luke, writes to the Gentiles with a view toward the humanity of Christ. The concept of one being both God and man would seem strange and foreign to those accustomed to Greek and Roman gods. Thus, Luke begins at Jesus, and follows the genealogy of Mary, passing through the patriarchs, ending with the very first man, Adam.
If Luke is tracing the genealogy of Mary, why does he cite Joseph's name? Today, it would be politically incorrect to map a woman's genealogy through her husband, however, in Luke's day, it was proper and correct. Luke follows Mary's genealogy, beginning with the name of Joseph, her husband, Heli's son-in-law, (in legal terms, Joseph is Helis's son by marriage). Note that Helis is Mary's father.
There is no contradiction.
As far as minted coins go, yes they were used but we have no proof that silver was or wasn't in circulation as well, or if minted coins were the only form of currency. That's an invalid argument.
In regards to your statement:
Quote:
Paul says Jesus appeared to the 12 after his ressurection, Judas was one of the 12 so says Mark 14:12
I fail to see where in Mark 14:12 it says that Jesus appeared to Judas at the time of His resurrection. In fact this is the verse taken from Mark 14:12 "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they **** the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" You've totally lost me on that Slim. :? Let me know exactly what you are talking about and get the biblical verses right so that I may come back to that.
Can you explain to me what the issues are over Jesus's last words and I'll most likely have a valid explanation .
Ummm ,Is it me or is this David guy not getting any of this.David,my advice to you is to seek information from a pastor of a church.They can explain and give you some knowledge.
You want a reason to believe in God, first take the most basic Anslems (or Pascals) Wager. Believe in God, if you die and there is one, youll be glad you did, if you die and there isnt one doesnt really matter. Therefore logically you should believe in God simply to hedge one's bet. Simple.
I have to interject on the completely factual part... a lot of the bible, in particurally the new testament was written by the apostles who have very differing stories on matters such as the birth of jesus, how judas died, etc.
Acts says that Judas' insides burst and his guts spilled out. (Acts 1:1
In Matthew, Judas hangs himself. (Matthew 27:5)
Paul says Jesus appeared to the 12 after his ressurection, Judas was one of the 12 so says Mark 14:12
Also, if you hold to some historical evidence, alot of what they say in the bible would largely be impossible. Such as Judas being paid with 30 silver pieces. In the time in which Jesus lived, they used minted coins which also meant that the coins would not have been wighted out as written. Or Jesus being hung between two robbers. Only insurrectionists and rebellious slaves were crucified.
The father of Joseph was disputed... som say it was Jacob, some say Heli...
Jesus' last words... I could go on and on...
Alot of the bible was doctored to fit the needs/opinions of its writers. Just keep that in mind when you say the bible is completely factual
MAT 27:5-8 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the price of blood." And they consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
First of all, notice that the text does not say that Judas died as a result of hanging. All it says is that he "went and hanged himself." Luke however, in Acts, tells us that "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out." This is a pretty clear indication (along with the other details given in Acts - Peter's speech, the need to pick a new apostle, etc.) that at least after Judas' fall, he was ****. So the whole concept that Matthew and Luke both recount Judas' death is highly probable, but not clear cut. Therefore, if I were to take a radical exegetical approach here, I could invalidate your alleged contradiction that there are two different accounts of how Judas died. Notice verse 5..."Then he...went and hanged himself." Matthew does not say Judas died, does it? Should we assume he died as a result of the hanging? What does Acts say? ACT 1:18 "Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out." ACT 1:20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.'
Oh... but why did you leave out verse 19 of ACTS, which contradicted your aforementioned verse. Let's put verses 18-20 together and read from there.
ACT 1:18 "Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out." ACT 1:18 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood. ACT 1:20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.'
Which would bring out another contradiction in the bible, since you previously stated, that the field the priests bought was called the field of blood, but does not ACTS say it was the Field in which Judas' entails burst open... :?
Quote:
Here we may have a graphic explanation of Judas' death. Of course, maybe someone can find some medical source somewhere that discusses the possibility of one having their entrails gush out after being burst open in the middle, and still survive. So, my line of reasoning to dispel the contradiction myth the "two" accounts of Judas' death is this...Matthew doesn't necessarily explain how Judas died; he does say Judas "hanged himself", but he didn't specifically say Judas died in the hanging incident. However, Acts seems to show us his graphic demise. Therefore, there is no contradiction between Matthew and Acts regarding Judas' `death'. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another. In fact, when you put both stories together you find what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his **** spilled out.
On his way falling down it is possible and plausible that he fell from the hanging and hit some rocks, thereby bursting open, but we don't know if Judas actually fell on rocks because the bible left that part out, but we can use our common sense.
Therefore, the new testament is a collection of books that tell of an account of Jesus's life from his birth to his death. Each book is written by a different apostle, a different individual at that so each story is going to be told differently. They're all telling the same story but in a different way. One apostle leaves out certain details, another decides to give these details. Since this story is told from different perspectives one book may leave out certain information that another book did not. However, when you put the stories together they all fit into one truth. Look at it as a puzzle. We all have a piece to the puzzle. My piece is different than yours but when we put them together they make one picture.
which is something I have said. The New testament is written by the Apostles, which means it is not going to be accurate as they reserve the right to doctor it so as they will. Seriously, let's look at the likelihood that Judas survived hanging himself, only to fall onto some rocks below... :? Are you serious... that's grasping for straws to cover an error in a book that is utterly concieved of human notations.
Quote:
As for your 2nd point:
Quote:
The father of Joseph was disputed...some say it was Jacob, some say Heli
This is a very common complaint that Atheist(not saying you are) seem to have:
Who is Joseph's father? In Matthew 1:16 we read, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." However, Luke 3:23 records, "...Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli..." Have we caught the inspired writers in a point of contradiction?
Now the careful Bible student is likely to conclude that Matthew and Luke present two different genealogies: genealogy of Joseph and the geanology of Mary. Following through the genealogies, one will notice that there are some names which are common to both, but also, an great number of differences. Matthew begins at the patriarch Abraham, and works his way to Jesus the Christ. Luke begins at Jesus, and works his way back to Adam. There are two genealogies, with two distinct purposes. Matthew, it appears reveals the genealogy of Joseph, and Luke, presents the genealogy of Mary.
Matthew, penning his gospel with the Jews in mind, sets out to establish Jesus' qualifications to be the Messiah through Joseph's genealogy. Thus, beginning with Abraham, he maps the Lord's genealogy through David, and the kings which followed. He presents Jesus royal lineage (through the males) through "...Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..."
Luke, writes to the Gentiles with a view toward the humanity of Christ. The concept of one being both God and man would seem strange and foreign to those accustomed to Greek and Roman gods. Thus, Luke begins at Jesus, and follows the genealogy of Mary, passing through the patriarchs, ending with the very first man, Adam.
If Luke is tracing the genealogy of Mary, why does he cite Joseph's name? Today, it would be politically incorrect to map a woman's genealogy through her husband, however, in Luke's day, it was proper and correct. Luke follows Mary's genealogy, beginning with the name of Joseph, her husband, Heli's son-in-law, (in legal terms, Joseph is Helis's son by marriage). Note that Helis is Mary's father.
There is no contradiction.
that I can buy, and makes sense...
Quote:
As far as minted coins go, yes they were used but we have no proof that silver was or wasn't in circulation as well, or if minted coins were the only form of currency. That's an invalid argument.
any historical reference would show what type of coins were in circulation... go check your history books man/woman...
Quote:
In regards to your statement:
Quote:
Paul says Jesus appeared to the 12 after his ressurection, Judas was one of the 12 so says Mark 14:12
I fail to see where in Mark 14:12 it says that Jesus appeared to Judas at the time of His resurrection. In fact this is the verse taken from Mark 14:12 "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they **** the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" You've totally lost me on that Slim. :? Let me know exactly what you are talking about and get the biblical verses right so that I may come back to that.
In Corinthians 15:5... (ya'll have bibles... get them out!!!) Jesus appeared to the 12 after his resurrection....
Matt 28:16 says he appeared to the 11 remaining apostles....
Keep in mind that Matthias was not appointed until after the ressurection in Acts 1:9-28
Which means that there is an erroneous disciple wandering around...
Quote:
Can you explain to me what the issues are over Jesus's last words and I'll most likely have a valid explanation .
Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."